INTERVIEW: Rudenko-Desniak on Association of Ukrainians in Russia
by Roman Woronowycz
Kyiv Press Bureau
Oleksander Rudenko-Desniak is a principal founder and the president of the Association of Ukrainians in Russi. (AUR). The 61-year-old journalist was born in Chernihiv and moved to Russia in 1954. For almost 40 years he worked in Moscow as a literary critic, most recently for the magazine Druzhba Narodiv, where he was national literature editor. He has published a book, "Domivka v Dolyni vid Domivky," about the waves of Ukrainian emigration to the West.
The interview with Mr. Rudenko-Desniak took place during the Second Congress of Ukrainians in Russia, held in Moscow on October 23-24. In the first part of this interview Mr. Rudenko-Desniak discussed national cultural autonomy, a status that the AUR is currently working to achieve with the Russian government. This second part deals with relations between the AUR and the western diaspora, as well as with Ukraine and the recent World Forum of Ukrainians.
CONCLUSION
Q: What type of relationship do you have with the government of Ukraine? You said earlier today that it hasn't been very helpful.
A: I established a newspaper here in Moscow and traveled to Kyiv in search of funding. I got no response. I started a television program in Moscow and received no help.
This is an objective problem, one that is not as simple as it may seem. From my point of view, we have no experience living in a civil society. Our experience is life in a Soviet society. In 1990 we were still Soviet man. Miracles don't happen.
The diaspora in Canada, or the United States, was built through the course of 100 years. We have been building for five. So we don't have that experience.
The Ukrainian state has no experience in normal relations with the diaspora. This is the terrible penalty for the historic lack of a state. There is no awareness that the diaspora exists in the world as an extension of yourself, such as it is with the Germans or the Jews.
That's one thing. There is another price for the lack of a country for so many years. I myself am from a village, as were my forefathers. We still maintain a peasant mentality.
Ukraine does not understand what it takes to live in the information age. If you want the world to know about you, you go into the world and announce your existence. But I, as the Ukrainian, wait for the world to come to me, bow before me and tell me just how smart I am.
Not knowing how to live in the information age has caused Ukraine many problems. I had a very simple idea. In Russia the Ukrainian intellectual potential is vast. Pardon me for saying this, but "metropolias" tend to gather the best. In the last 300 years a vast Ukrainian intellectual potential has amassed here. It must be harnessed - in the sphere of culture, of information.
At the first and second World Forum of Ukrainians and at the congress I said that our diaspora needs to become a channel for information about Ukraine into the Russian media world: objective information about history, culture, current affairs, to destroy the myths about Ukraine that remain in the mind of the average Russian. This avenue must be utilized through publications, through television stations and computer channels.
So I thought that when I began publishing this Ukrainian newspaper, probably the first Ukrainian newspaper in the history of Moscow, and traveled to Kyiv, it would cause some excitement there. Okay, it was a small newspaper, but at least a trickle had begun.
There was no reaction. They did not understand the point: why was it needed?
The English, who live on a small island, built one of the great empires only because they went into the world to conquer it. Today America is conquering the information age. There is no argument here. Today they are winning in Russia, in the post-Soviet space: American cinema, American music, American advertising, etc. They are winning the war in the information age, and there is no need to send armies.
They have institutes that work to develop the American image across the world. Americans realize you have to support this information invasion.
As for young Ukraine, it needs to conquer its place under the sun, its information space, at whatever price. If it wins the battle in the world of information it will gain much in terms of the economy, and in politics it goes without saying.
Q: So, then let's turn to the West. What are your relations with the diaspora in Canada and the United States?
A: I have visited Canada and the States twice. The relationship between them and us is a peculiar one. I first visited five years ago and returned two years back. I had great meetings at Harvard University, in Washington, Chicago. I met my colleagues from the Ukrainian World Congress. We had very interesting exchanges. But today we have no contact. None.
I look for a reason, but I can't find one. I don't blame anybody. I believe that part of the reason is that these are older people with a well-developed world sense.
Q: You mean you have no contact with the leader of the Ukrainian World Congress, Dmytro Cipiwnyk?
A: We meet at forums, we get along fabulously. In that sense there are contacts.
But the crux of the matter is that they have no desire to travel here. For them Moscow is a symbol of the worst that happened in their lives. I'm not judging them. I understand them.
I met a Ukrainian from Argentina in Kyiv and invited him to Moscow. He said, "No way, Moscow is a hyena on fire." I told him, "Oh yeah, well we live there."
It is difficult to overcome that, it is their view of the world.
I have invited Cipiwnyk here and [Yaroslav] Sokolyk and others. We do have contact on an individual basis. But there is no ongoing organizational contact, and that's too bad.
I say this directly because I am not a good diplomat. I used to repeatedly invite our colleagues from the West and tell them, "Please visit because we have no experience about developing a national community in a democratic society. We simply have none. We don't know what to grab on to."
Today I no longer have this problem because in these past years we have been bruised in the head so often that we now do have our own experience. It is a bitter one, not all that sweet.
I can't tell you that the problem has been solved. We can't solve a problem in five years that developed over 500 years. There is a national mentality, a societal mentality. There exists a post-imperial syndrome.
The experience that we have gained in the last five years is personal experience. But I repeat, I would have been delighted to have greeted guests here from the States, from Canada. If they don't want to visit Moscow, they can go to Tiumen. If not Tiumen, they can travel to Vladivostok or to Cheliabinsk. Wherever they would like. They can visit St. Petersburg.
They should see life here today. It is not good, and it is not bad. This is the reality. We live it; there is no other.
Q: I'd like to turn to the topic of the World Forum of Ukrainians that was held in Kyiv this past August. The reaction to it in the Western diaspora was pretty much negative. What were your impressions?
A: To use a diplomatic word, I had "serious" impressions. It is difficult to be affronted by the people who organized the forum. You can't be offended, you must understand what went on.
We use many terms out of habit: "World Ukrainianism." But what does that mean? You see, we want to assure ourselves that membership in one nation assures us that all other problems will be solved. I'm exaggerating, of course, but you understand the situation.
But then when people gather it becomes apparent that they hold varied ideas as to societal interests, different ideas about the world in general. These are very different people. So if we are talking about world Ukrainianism, then there is a need to build a world system, not to declare that it exists. You can declare independence, not world Ukrainianism. That you must build.
Then you must unite. You asked me about contacts with the West. I have good friends there, I believe. But I have no contact with the Western diaspora. Private contacts and official organizational contacts are two very different things. I could have great friends in the United Arab Emirates, but that would mean nothing.
If we want to make truly real this idea of world Ukrainianism we need to do a lot more. First, we have to identify the characteristics of each of these groups in the world Ukrainian movement. Ukrainians in the United States and Canada are one thing. Ukrainians in Western Europe are another. Ukrainians in the post-Soviet space are a third. And so on. We must determine what is essential for each of these groups.
Second, we must find the points at which our interests converge. The idea of building a Ukrainian state is a wonderful idea. It is supported on an emotional and philosophical level. But an organizational process also is needed.
If organizations form in Kyiv that take on coordinating responsibilities in these matters, they must then actually be coordinating organizations. They must gather the threads together. They have to create this thing just like with any organization - not like a state organization, but like an individual, cultural organization, as an organization of our efforts, of our links.
I think such an organization should be able to develop an exchange of individuals, let's say from here to Australia, or Argentina or the United States, and vice versa, not as a work exchange, but as an exchange of people who are interested in cultural ties and development and associated problems. This would be one way to begin an exchange of information, an exchange of our views on the world.
These issues cannot be resolved at a forum. The work must be done between forums not at the forum itself. This is what I want to convince my friends in Kyiv. I want to tell them, "my dear friends, it is great that we gathered here, sat down together, drank a few toasts. But the forum ends and another one doesn't occur for five years. What do we do in the meantime?"
Everything that is essential must be done between forums. We must build on the work. If not, the idea of a world Ukrainian movement will end up an abstraction, a nostalgic abstraction. I would rather have it a reality, and it can be a reality.
The second problem also is a serious one. It regards certain disagreements with my colleagues here in Moscow, in Russia. They asked me at one time, why, when the statutes of the Association of Ukrainians in Russia were being approved, was there no point made that an important goal of the AUR is the building of an independent Ukrainian state. Let me say first that the statutes were voted on before my time.
I told them that it is not a responsibility of Russian citizens to build the Ukrainian state. We founded this organization (the AUR) to protect our rights. First of all, it is an organization that should protect our rights and ensure our rights.
We wholeheartedly and spiritually support a normal Ukrainian state and visit our historical homeland with joy. But why should the building of a Ukrainian state be the main objective for citizens of Russia of Ukrainian descent, or of the United States? This is a very interesting question.
It is not an easy task to determine the formula for the existence of a truly worldwide Ukrainian community. It is easier to talk sweetly of it at gatherings. But gathering and working are not one and the same.
Copyright © The Ukrainian Weekly, November 16, 1997, No. 46, Vol. LXV
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