INTERVIEW
President Kuchma speaks with RFE/RL correspondent
President Leonid Kuchma of Ukraine spoke on the telephone in a live evening program of RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service on April 3. Below is the first part of a translation of his interview, which was transcribed and published by RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service on its website http://www.radiosvoboda.org. RFE/RL plans to release part 2 of the interview in next week's issue.
Q: Leonid Danylovych, I'm very glad that you've found time to talk to us. You are speaking with Oleksa Boyarko, an employee of RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service. I have a lot of questions for you.
A: You're welcome, I'm ready to openly answer them.
Q: I'll start with a general question. You know, if one listens to Ukrainian politicians today, one cannot immediately grasp what kind of a country Ukraine is. Extreme rightists say it is a bandit, totalitarian regime; extreme leftists also say it is a bandit regime.
A: If we classify [Socialist Party leader Oleksander] Moroz as an extreme leftist, then it is he who says so.
Q: And some say it is an autocratic regime right now. You often mention that you want to build a democratic Ukraine. In your opinion, what democratic characteristics does Ukraine already possess, and what characteristics are you going to develop in the future?
A: In the first place, there is Ukraine's Constitution, which envisions exactly this [democratic] development pattern for society and the country as a whole. Therefore, all of us should proceed from the constitution in our actions.
As regards those characteristics, they can be seen, as people say, with a naked eye. In the first place, the fact that [Ukraine's] power system is divided into three branches - legislative, executive and judicial - is a trait of the democratic community. And the fact that the Constitution guarantees human rights and freedoms. True, they are not always observed - to begin with living standards - but [the Constitution] is our orientation point.
Furthermore, regardless of what people say in Ukraine or elsewhere, there is freedom of expression in Ukraine, there are independent media. ... It is unambiguous that there are media that are independent from the state, the government, the authorities.
Therefore, our values are European ones, we want to stick to them. You see, other countries were pursuing [those values] for 100 or 200 years, or even longer, while we [are expected] to transform one system into another within 10 years. I think it is senseless to make the same demands on the [Ukrainian] society as on Germany or France.
Q: Your opponents often say that it is necessary to limit the presidential powers in the future. You have had a lot of experience in the post of president. What is your opinion about the proposal to transform Ukraine into a parliamentary republic with a ceremonial president in the future?
A: [My opinion is] absolutely negative. It is 100 or even 200 percent negative. [The proposal] spells a failure for all of Ukraine. It is a threat to the existence of Ukraine as a state. Let us suppose that we have a parliamentary republic - what would happen in Ukraine?
We need not look for examples in remote parts. Under pressure from some structures, including European ones, Moldova is a parliamentary republic. What has happened there is evident to everybody. If anybody wants to make an experiment in Ukraine. ... Ukraine is not Moldova, and consequences will be much more disastrous, not only for Ukraine but also for Europe. Therefore, there is no need to play a game that is not needed. Today, in the transition period, a strong executive branch is necessary.
Q: Is it non-existent, Mr. President?
A: Today? It is non-existent because of a simple reason: You have helped ruin the results of the [constitutional] referendum, prevent their implementation. (Ed. note: it is not clear whether Kuchma has RFE/RL's Ukrainian Service, or someone else in mind). What the referendum envisioned was the creation of a workable state power system, a European model, in which parliamentary elections lead to the creation of a coalition that assumes responsibility, including for the formation of a government. And there is mutual responsibility.
As of today, the Parliament is not responsible for anything, is it? Not responsible for anything. The parliament is not structured, and the majority that was created under the influence of some factors - including the referendum - has now been ruined by some forces. Tell me, please, is it possible for a country to achieve successes if the government has no support in the Parliament?
Therefore, I would like to warn everybody against pushing Ukraine into this fatal path. For some reason nobody doubts the necessity of a strong government in France. Perhaps you will extend your wish to install a totally parliamentary republic to the United States as well, won't you?
Let us look at Europe. In every country the president is able to disband the Parliament if it is not operational, while the president in Ukraine does not have such a possibility.
Q: There is a lot of talk now about a dialogue between the presidential authority and its opponents. With which forces or groups, or with which persons are you not going to conduct any dialogue?
A: I will not conduct any dialogue with those forces that do not support this strategic course of Ukraine's development, that do not want Ukraine to be an independent country.
Q: Could you name any specific people?
A: Well, what for? Let's not touch upon specifics. If there's a need, I can tell you about specific people. [I will have no dialogue] with those forces that do not want to work within the legal framework, within the framework of the Constitution, which I should sacredly observe as the president, as the guarantor of the Constitution. [And] with those forces that demand the dismissal of the president or the transformation of Ukraine into a parliamentary republic.
I defend the Constitution and will not sit down to negotiate with those forces that want transformations according to the pattern "somebody wants something." Otherwise, I'm open for dialogue with all forces: from the left wing and the right wing, and from the center, with anyone you like, provided they share the values I have mentioned.
This dialogue has begun. I requested the people who are respected in society [to handle] this issue. But it is not advantageous for some oppositionists. It is not advantageous to conduct a dialogue [for them], so they're making demands that cannot be met.
Moreover, who has given them the right to say that "we are the main oppositionists today"? (Ed. note: Mr. Kuchma apparently refers to the demand of the Forum for National Salvation that it be recognized as the main negotiation partner.) There is an opposition that I fought during the elections, the Communist part [of the opposition], which obtained more than 10 million votes. Is it an opposition or not? If they, too, put themselves within the same framework as the opposition mentioned before, with the same demands, then tell me, please, what will happen in Ukraine? [Progressive Socialist Party leader Natalia] Vitrenko is in the opposition, too.
I say it once again: The elections did take place, the people did make their choice, one does not need to make demands now but to work, to work within the legislative framework, to win not with stones [during demonstrations] but in the presidential elections, which are scheduled for 2004. Let them show that they have support in society, among voters.
Q: Mr. President, do you personally believe that you can find common language with your opponents at all?
A: If they don't want to find common language, I'll not find it either, because of the following reason: the language of ultimatums is not a language for speaking with the authorities. I reject ultimatums. I'm not going to capitulate. I say I'm a president elected in a nationwide ballot. More than 16 million voters voted for me.
Q: Let me interrupt you with the [following] question: Are you preparing a replacement for yourself? Of course, you don't have to mention names, and I will not insist on them, but do you see in your entourage those ...
A: I'm not [former Russian President] Yeltsin, I'm not going to resign, therefore the replacement is not the main concern for me today. The main concern [for me] is to make the system work as a whole, to make the government work [and to] cooperate with the parliamentary majority. [To ensure that the Parliament] adopts legislation that is needed by society, that it fully meet its commitments to the Council of Europe and so on. [To ensure] that we be perceived as a civilized country, not as a country where the fight for a mace is continuing. I hope you know what a mace is, you haven't forgotten, have you? (Ed. note: mace or bulava in Ukrainian, is a symbol of authority of a hetman, a Kozak leader); Ukraine's newly elected president is presented with a mace during the inauguration.)
Q: I know very well what a mace is. Mr. President, do you use your mace for practical purposes? People often say that you are a victim of various machinators who make their shady deals on your account. Is it so?
A: I reject this [allegation] absolutely, unambiguously as an outright lie. An absolute lie. You know that I'm a business-like man, I always say: Please talk facts, not suppositions, not rotten allegations that are often voiced from the side of my opponents.
It turns out that [people] have been given freedom [of expression], but social mechanisms for using this freedom have not been created. It's the reason for this all.
Regarding some accounts somewhere, as you allege, I bestow these accounts upon you. I bestow them upon Radio Liberty, perhaps they will help you work normally, won't they?
Q: I don't assert anything, I'm only asking.
A: And I'm answering you: I can give my accounts to Radio Liberty.
Q: You know, it is very important for history. You declare that you do not have any accounts abroad. Very well, history will record this for itself. We are off that, we only ask.
A: Indeed, history will record. History will put everything in its place: who is who, the role of people, including [your] radio station.
PART I
Copyright © The Ukrainian Weekly, April 15, 2001, No. 15, Vol. LXIX
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